1 STATE OF RHODE ISLAND AND PROVIDENCE PLANTATIONS
DEPARTMENT OF LABOR AND TRAINING
2 DIVISION OF PROFESSIONAL REGULATION
3
4
5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
PROCEEDINGS AT HEARING :
6 :
IN RE: :
7 :
APPRENTICESHIP COUNCIL :
8 SUBCOMMITTEE :
. . . . . . . . . . . . . .
9
10
11
12
DATE: MARCH 29, 2007
13 TIME: 9:30 A.M.
PLACE: 1511 PONTIAC AVENUE
14 BUILDING 73
CRANSTON, RI
15
16 PRESENT:
17 JOSEPH CONTARINO
MICHAEL RUGGIERI
18 WILLIAM RILEY
LITA OREFICE, DIRECTOR
19 VAL LOMBARDI, ESQUIRE
20
21
22
RHODE ISLAND COURT REPORTING
23 747 NORTH MAIN STREET
PROVIDENCE, RI 02904
24 (401) 437-3366
0002
1 (HEARING COMMENCED AT 9:45 A.M.)
2 MR. CONTARINO: Good morning. I
3 want to call this meeting to order. I want to
4 introduce myself again. My name is Joseph Contarino,
5 I'm on the subcommittee. Mr. William Riley is
6 here also for the subcommittee. We're here to
7 hear testimony only today. Again, not to be
8 redundant, we're here to hear the unlicensed
9 trades first. We have a list of people. I want
10 to hear everybody. If you are a licensed trade
11 and we call your name, we just have to come back
12 to you. We're going to go with the unlicensed
13 trades first. With that, I think we can proceed
14 to the first person.
15 MR. RUGGIERI: Kim Balkcom.
16 MS. BALKCOM: Licensed trade.
17 MR. CONTARINO: Also, I want to --
18 excuse me a minute. I want to announce that from
19 the Department of Labor, the Director is sitting
20 with us and Val Constantino (sic), legal counsel.
21 MR. RUGGIERI: Kim, pass.
22 John Bellucci.
23 MR. BELLUCCI: Licensed trade.
24 MR. RUGGIERI: Michael Dorummond.
0003
1 MR. DORUMMOND: Licensed trade.
2 MR. RUGGIERI: Richard Connolly.
3 MR. CONNOLLY: Licensed trade.
4 MR. RUGGIERI: Domenic Izzi.
5 MR. IZZI: I'd like to pass at
6 this time.
7 MR. RUGGIERI: Peter Lombardi.
8 MR. LOMBARDI: Licensed trade.
9 MR. RUGGIERI: Terry, is it, Regen?
10 MR. REGEN: Licensed trade.
11 MR. RUGGIERI: Ray Sheridan.
12 MR. SHERIDAN: Licensed trade.
13 MR. RUGGIERI: You guys come out
14 in force. Fred Almeida.
15 MR. ALMEIDA: Licensed trade.
16 MR. RUGGIERI: Joe DeLicio.
17 MR. DeLICIO: Licensed trade.
18 MR. RUGGIERI: Robert Eva.
19 MR. EVA: Licensed trade.
20 MR. RUGGIERI: Al Durand.
21 MR. DURAND: Licensed trade.
22 MR. RUGGIERI: Tim Byrne.
23 MR. BYRNE: Licensed trade.
24 MR. RUGGIERI: Richard Keogh.
0004
1 MR. KEOGH: Licensed trade.
2 MR. RUGGIERI: Jon Jarvis.
3 MR. JARVIS: Licensed trade.
4 MR. RUGGIERI: Adam Hitchen.
5 MR. HITCHEN: Licensed trade.
6 MR. RUGGIERI: Steve Lussier.
7 MR. LUSSIER: Licensed trade.
8 MR. RUGGIERI: Harvey Simms.
9 MR. SIMMS: Madam secretary,
10 gentlemen, I am Harvey Simms. I am the president
11 of the Rhode Island Chapter of the Associated
12 Builders and Contractors. I'm here today to just
13 provide you with some brief information on ratios
14 of apprentices to journeymen. There are three
15 items that I want to provide for the record.
16 Number one: This is a Model Trade Agreement
17 from the US Department of Labor and the
18 Associated Builders and Contractors. It was
19 approved by the Labor Department. The ratio
20 is 1-to-1, and it covers licensed and unlicensed
21 trade in the State of Rhode Island. This is
22 nationwide. It's been adopted by 23 states
23 automatically and about five or six of the tax
24 states have already adopted this. So I'm going
0005
1 to submit that for the record.
2 The other item I have is a letter outlining
3 a Joint Agreement between the Independent
4 Electrical Contractors of America and the US
5 Department of Labor which is a one journeyman to
6 two apprentices, nationwide program. I'm going
7 to submit that.
8 The last item I have is a Letter of
9 Agreement between the national -- it's a national
10 guideline for Apprenticeship Training Standard
11 between the NECA, National Electrical Contractors
12 Association, IBEW, and the US Department of
13 Labor, and it's a 1-to-1 ratio.
14 So as you can see, a 1-to-1 ratio is not
15 foreign. It's been adopted and approved by the
16 US Department of Labor. I'll just submit that
17 for your information. If you have any questions,
18 I'll be glad to answer them.
19 MR. RUGGIERI: Thank you,
20 Mr. Simpson (sic). Stanford Cameron.
21 MR. CAMERON: I'm across the
22 board. Good morning, I'm here representing the
23 Black Contractors Association of Rhode Island and
24 also the nonprofit called the "Center to Advance
0006
1 Minority Participation in the Construction
2 Industry."
3 I'm here to advocate for the 1-to-1 ratio
4 only because it's difficult for us to get our
5 trainees employed. And with 5-to-1, that would
6 be a real problem. Most of the contractors in
7 our association are small guys. They rarely have
8 a crew of five, and that would also be a hardship
9 if the 5-to-1 is imposed.
10 Most of the minorities, they hire minority
11 workers, and we would like to see more minority
12 workers in the industry across the board. I
13 think the 5-to-1 is harmful in that regard.
14 MR. CONTARINO: Anything else?
15 MR. CAMERON: I'll answer any
16 questions.
17 MR. CONTARINO: I think that's
18 fine. I appreciate your time.
19 MR. RUGGIERI: Paul Lander.
20 MR. LANDER: Good morning, good
21 members, brothers and sisters. My name is
22 Paul Lander. I'm with the Rhode Island
23 Carpenters Union.
24 My local union has been active for about 125
0007
1 years. We have approximately 120 apprentices
2 registered in the State of Rhode Island, 20 of
3 them being minorities. We have an apprenticeship
4 program that's been enacted for many, many years.
5 We're the only active recognized program in the
6 State of Rhode Island. We're not the only one,
7 but we're the only active one.
8 We do interviews on a monthly basis of
9 approximately 25 people. Our last test was last
10 month. We tested 125 apprentices. This is a
11 very active program. As I said, we're the only
12 active recognized program in the State of Rhode
13 Island.
14 With that being said, we are very
15 comfortable with the 5-to-1 ratio. We have found
16 through the years that it has worked very well to
17 produce extremely qualified journeymen to the
18 State of Rhode Island. We would respectfully
19 request that it would stay that way. Thank you
20 very much.
21 MR. RUGGIERI: Thank you.
22 Scott Duhamel.
23 MR. DUHAMEL: Morning, everyone.
24 I'm Scott Duhamel. I'm the business
0008
1 representative for the Painters Union. I
2 represent painters, wall covers, and drywall
3 finishes.
4 As you all know, everybody in this room,
5 there's been a long story, history of
6 construction. Things don't happen overnight.
7 The reason these ratios have occurred is because
8 the working, the doing, and the actual practice
9 has been discovered through the state for reasons
10 of learning, for reasons of starting someone who
11 knows nothing about the business and getting them
12 to be a journeyman and making a career out of it.
13 Ratios work, and they've worked again and again
14 and again.
15 As an organizer -- as a former organizer,
16 when I was out in the field talking throughout
17 this state and nearby states, Massachusetts and
18 Connecticut, I found again and again unscrupulous
19 companies, perhaps no one in this room, we
20 wouldn't call you that, but unscrupulous
21 companies where they've classified new workers as
22 apprentices. They work two or three months as
23 apprentices. They've never seen or heard from
24 again.
0009
1 Essentially, the use -- when we do this
2 1-to-1 ratio of apprentices, it's an opportunity
3 to cheat, to beat those that do it correctly, and
4 nowhere is there any training involved, nowhere
5 does this go on further. This is for a job, it's
6 to get the low bid on a job, to get past that
7 job, and see you later, Jack.
8 I can attest that I've talked to many, many,
9 many individuals who are so-called "apprentices,"
10 who have never seen a classroom, never seen a
11 written test, never had any form of training
12 besides someone telling them what to do on the
13 jobsite, and they're in danger of 1-to-1
14 apprenticeship.
15 You all know there are many, many
16 unscrupulous contractors out there where this
17 would be an opportunity to get in, get in low, do
18 it for a much less price, and I think that's a
19 major, major, major problem. Thank you very
20 much.
21 MR. CONTARINO: Thank you.
22 MR. RUGGIERI: Mark Pickle.
23 MR. DIGGLE: It's Diggle.
24 Licensed trade.
0010
1 MR. RUGGIERI: I know I was going
2 to say a few of these wrong, forgive me.
3 MR. DIGGLE: Oh, yes.
4 MR. RUGGIERI: Dick Daley.
5 MR. DALEY: Nothing at this time.
6 Thank you.
7 MR. RUGGIERI: Chris Treml from
8 the -- Chris Treml.
9 MR. TREML: Licensed trade.
10 MR. RUGGIERI: Martin -- help me
11 with this one.
12 MR. ISRAELIT: Israelit. Licensed
13 trade.
14 MR. RUGGIERI: Catherine Lambert.
15 MS. LAMBERT: Licensed trade.
16 MR. RUGGIERI: Laura Ley.
17 MS. LEY: Licensed trade.
18 MR. RUGGIERI: That's an easy one.
19 Is this Josh Tofani, Jay's Electric?
20 MR. TOFANI: Pass. Licence trade.
21 MR. RUGGIERI: Anthony --
22 MR. D'ANTONIO: I'll pass now.
23 MR. RUGGIERI: Okay. That's it on
24 the -- we'll go right to the top of the list.
0011
1 MR. CONTARINO: Let's do it.
2 MR. RUGGIERI: Kim Balkcom.
3 MS. BALKCOM: Kim Balkcom. I'm
4 with JKL Engineering, and I want to reiterate
5 what I said last time, a few weeks ago.
6 Recruitment is a big problem for us because we're
7 a very small operation. I have one apprentice
8 currently, and it ties my hands. I have some
9 great applicants that come in, but I cannot hire
10 them because I cannot hire anymore apprentices,
11 so it's a big problem.
12 MR. CONTARINO: Explain that to
13 me. What do you mean you can't hire anymore
14 employees?
15 MS. BALKCOM: I can't hire another
16 employee for service tech to come as an
17 apprentice. I can only hire fully licensed
18 service technicians, which is virtually
19 impossible for us.
20 I mean, we're a very small operation. I
21 can't compete with the large corporations, and,
22 unfortunately, the pool out there is not great.
23 So the next best thing is to hire an apprentice
24 and get them trained. I can't do that right now
0012
1 because I already have one apprentice.
2 MR. CONTARINO: Let me ask you a
3 question. The apprentices -- how long have you
4 been in business?
5 MS. BALKCOM: Thirty-five years.
6 MR. CONTARINO: How many
7 apprentices went through the organization?
8 MS. BALKCOM: I've only been there
9 for the past six years, and I just -- we've had
10 one apprentice.
11 MR. CONTARINO: One apprentice in
12 six years?
13 MS. BALKCOM: Uh-huh.
14 MR. CONTARINO: Why? The
15 apprenticeship program runs three to four years
16 or -- correct me if I'm wrong, it used to be
17 more. But I don't understand that if you've been
18 in business that long and you're telling me the
19 change of ratio is going to help you, I don't
20 understand the manpower of what you're saying to
21 me. I'm a little confused.
22 MS. BALKCOM: Prior to -- the
23 apprentice I have now has been in the program.
24 MR. CONTARINO: Okay.
0013
1 MS. BALKCOM: So prior to that, we
2 had a full staff of service techs. I didn't have
3 a need to hire anymore, but I do now. I mean,
4 the times change, the economy changes.
5 MR. CONTARINO: And they change,
6 right?
7 MS. BALKCOM: Absolutely.
8 MR. CONTARINO: They're leaving
9 the company; is that what you're telling me?
10 MS. BALKCOM: After they go
11 through the program?
12 MR. CONTARINO: Yes.
13 MS. BALKCOM: I haven't seen --
14 since I've been there, I haven't had anyone go
15 through the program and leave.
16 MR. CONTARINO: Have they
17 graduated?
18 MS. BALKCOM: My apprentice -- I
19 have an apprentice who's still in the program.
20 MR. CONTARINO: All right. I'm
21 just fishing. I don't know.
22 MR. RUGGIERI: John Bellucci.
23 MR. BELLUCCI: My name is
24 John Bellucci. I work for a company called JB
0014
1 Mechanical. We have one apprentice at the
2 present time.
3 I believe that the ratios are going to
4 prompt something that we haven't had in this
5 industry in a long time, and that's an influx of
6 people that are going to be interested in
7 becoming service technicians.
8 From the educational standpoint, I was a
9 teacher in the public school system, vocational
10 school system for 12 years. They ended the
11 program of refrigeration, heating and air
12 conditioning because, theoretically, they
13 couldn't find 12 people that wanted to do this
14 every year. We all know that that's not true,
15 but the most important thing is is that we have a
16 problem in getting good technicians.
17 I believe a 1-to-1 ratio is good as long as
18 they are indentured. A journeyman must be along
19 with the apprentice at all times. I don't feel
20 as though the apprentice is or should be able to
21 go out and work on their own completely separate
22 from the journeyman.
23 I understand that it will increase the labor
24 cost. I understand many factors, but the most
0015
1 important thing is that we will finally begin to
2 get some people into this industry. The older
3 guys are dying off. We're losing people and --
4 I'm going to say it --
5 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Thank you, John.
6 MR. BELLUCCI: But the most
7 important thing is that we have become -- the
8 refrigeration trade, I'll talk about that because
9 I know that first-hand, we have become a more and
10 more important group of people. You can't make a
11 telephone call without someone that can't do
12 cooling. It's not a group of backyard mechanics.
13 It's very, very, very specialized now.
14 And in order to teach these people, you need
15 a structured course, which we have. You need a
16 structured program, which we have in place
17 through two or three different outlets, and you
18 also need to be indentured.
19 An indentured plan is that a company can't
20 send out a journeyman to do -- I'm sorry. Can't
21 send out an apprentice to do what a journeyman is
22 only capable of doing.
23 I believe that if those -- those rules are
24 made to be together if this program is going to
0016
1 work 1-to-1. If it doesn't, then it will be
2 abused exactly like someone else mentioned. It
3 will be totally abused. They'll send out the
4 apprentice to do the journeyman's job. Pretty
5 soon you won't have any journeymen in your
6 company, you'll have a whole bunch of
7 apprentices, and they'll make the paperwork work.
8 But I think that if the rules are in place
9 and we are cognizant that we need to abide by the
10 rules, I think it will work. I think it makes
11 good sense to have a person that's indentured for
12 five years. That's how long it takes to become a
13 journeyman in my industry. The total time, I
14 think, is five years. That's a long time for
15 someone to be indentured. It's a long time for
16 them to learn. But most importantly, they can't
17 learn what they have to do in the five years of
18 indenturement, their learning process, and the
19 learning curve goes on for many years after that.
20 MR. CONTARINO: Let me ask you a
21 question. If you've got 1-to-1 -- what you're
22 asking us to consider is if the journeyman is
23 going to work on the job that you've assigned him
24 to on a particular project and that journeyman
0017
1 calls you up at 6:00 in the morning and says, "I
2 can't come to work," what would you do with that
3 apprentice?
4 MR. BELLUCCI: Well, we would have
5 to find something that he can do. Those are the
6 problems that you would have as a boss. What
7 would you do if you didn't have any work for the
8 journeyman that day?
9 I mean, in this climate, in this industry, I
10 know that there's many bosses or many service
11 managers out there that don't have eight hours
12 worth of work for every journeyman they have. I
13 mean, that's a fact. In this kind of weather,
14 with our industry, who knows whether you're going
15 to have four men working eight hours. Some
16 companies, they guarantee their men four hours.
17 Some people don't guarantee their men anything.
18 MR. CONTARINO: If you only got
19 two men in your shop -- let's assume you're a
20 small shop and you have two people, a journeyman
21 and apprentice, what do you do with the
22 apprentice that day? Go in the shop and not do
23 nothing all day; is that what you would do? I'm
24 asking you what your company would do.
0018
1 MR. BELLUCCI: The apprentice
2 could to go to work with the master.
3 MR. CONTARINO: We just said that
4 that master called in.
5 MR. BELLUCCI: No. You said the
6 journeyman. See, our companies have to have one
7 master. They have to have one journeyman. If
8 you want, they could have two journeymen,
9 whatever. If they have an apprentice, an
10 apprentice -- one apprentice, one master. If the
11 master is doing billing or whatever for that
12 particular day, it's -- the onus is on the owner
13 or whatever to keep that man busy.
14 If the rules say he can't go out and work on
15 his own, he can't go out and work on his own. If
16 they do send them, then they're breaking the law.
17 In other words, I think that if there isn't
18 any work, okay, fine. There's usually something
19 for everybody to do. But if they're going to
20 send them out on the job, then they have to be
21 willing to pay the price, that it is against the
22 law for them to go out. It is against the law
23 for a company not to have a master. The
24 Department of Labor will shut them down if there
0019
1 is no master.
2 MR. CONTARINO: Okay. Thank you.
3 MR. RUGGIERI: Michael Dorummond.
4 MR. DORUMMOND: Pass at this time.
5 MR. RUGGIERI: Pass. Okay.
6 Richard Connolly.
7 MR. CONNOLLY: I'll pass at this
8 time.
9 MR. RUGGIERI: Domenic Izzi.
10 MR. IZZI: I'm the apprentice
11 coordinator for construction laborers. We
12 believe that the ratio of 1-to-5 should stand.
13 By having a 1-to-1 ratio, we're going to
14 displace quite a few of our highly skilled trades
15 people. Also, I think it would be a major
16 problem trying to police the projects. I see a
17 lot of abuse with that particular ratio.
18 We have 110 apprentices within our program.
19 Last year alone, my local union in Providence, we
20 initially graduated nine. We're doing quite well
21 as far as bringing our apprentices up to journey
22 worker status.
23 We have 33 percent of females and minorities
24 in our program, so we're pretty proud of that.
0020
1 For the record, I want to let you know that
2 the laborers feel that it should stay at 1-to-5.
3 MR. CONTARINO: Thank you very
4 much.
5 MR. RUGGIERI: Peter Lombardi, Jr.
6 MR. LOMBARDI: Good morning. I
7 represent the oil heating industry. And, you
8 know, as you well know, a lot of our businesses
9 are very small in comparison to some of you
10 people who have massive amounts of people working
11 for you. So 1-on-1 is a good fit for us in
12 regards to the small businessman who can't hire
13 half a dozen masters to take on just one person
14 in the trade.
15 It seems to us that going 1-to-1 under
16 strict regulations would be the way to go, and
17 I'm voting in favor of that.
18 I have some letters here in regards to
19 letters from oil dealers who approve of the
20 1-to-1 ratio.
21 MR. CONTARINO: Submit them to the
22 stenographer.
23 MR. LOMBARDI: Thank you very
24 much.
0021
1 MR. RUGGIERI: Terry Regen.
2 MR. REGEN: Pass.
3 MR. RUGGIERI: Ray Sheridan.
4 MR. SHERIDAN: Good morning.
5 MR. CONTARINO: Good morning.
6 MR. SHERIDAN: A memo to the Rhode
7 Island State Apprenticeship Counsel/Department of
8 Labor & Training. "To whom it may concern: As a
9 result of a public meeting attended on 3/13/07,
10 it is my impression that the council is seeking
11 statistical information to address the labor
12 market projections for the upcoming demand in the
13 construction industry.
14 Ratio comparisons were made as to those
15 utilized in other states. I am not sure as to
16 the other trades, but I do know that the State of
17 Rhode Island does not have a reciprocity
18 agreement for electric licenses. For example,
19 having a Rhode Island electrical license does not
20 allow you to work as an electrician in another
21 state. Having an electrical license in another
22 state, does not allow you to work in the State of
23 Rhode Island as an electrician.
24 Fortunately, our industry is one which
0022
1 cannot be sent out to a foreign country to be
2 performed. Therefore, we need to address our
3 needs with the workforce that we have available
4 within our own state.
5 Therefore, we need to utilize an
6 apprenticeship ratio that allows for a safe and
7 efficient growth.
8 It would appear that there are currently
9 three different ratios that are used or
10 recommended by the council; a 1-to-1, 3-to-2, and
11 5-to-1.
12 At a 1-to-1 with a 5-to-1 on prevailing,
13 does not allow for growth as the contractor's
14 individual ratio would need to change based upon
15 the type of work schedule.
16 A uniform 3-to-2 ratio for all work,
17 prevailing and nonprevailing, would be the most
18 potential growth within the industry.
19 Respectfully, Ray Sheridan."
20 MR. RUGGIERI: Fred Almeida.
21 MR. ALMEIDA: I'm the President of
22 Rhode Island Master Plumbers Association. And on
23 behalf of the Board of Directors in the -- and
24 its members, we're all in favor of keeping 1-to-1.
0023
1 We feel that it will cause a hardship for a
2 lot of the small companies in our area, which, I
3 believe, most of our state is made up of a lot of
4 small companies. It's a lot of those small
5 companies that the consumers like to deal with
6 and will continue to deal with, but it will cause
7 a hardship for the small companies to be able to
8 manage this ratio situation that we have here
9 today.
10 Also, I'm the owner of Almeida Plumbing & Air,
11 which on the heating side, the mechanical side,
12 it would also cause a hardship with my company.
13 Thank you.
14 MR. CONTARINO: Thank you.
15 MR. RUGGIERI: Joe DeLicio.
16 MR. DeLICIO: Good morning. My
17 name is Joseph DeLicio. I work for Roto-Rooter
18 as a manager, I'm also a teacher at the Rhode
19 Island Master Plumbers Association.
20 We're in favor of the 1-to-1 ratio.
21 Particularly, it's a hardship for the service
22 companies, service companies that have, you know,
23 emergency service. People rely on these
24 companies when they're in dire need, when they
0024
1 have a frozen pipe or something like that.
2 Having anything other than a 1-to-1 would make it
3 difficult for the companies.
4 Also, on the mechanical side, I am in favor
5 of the 1-to-1 ratio for the same reasons. We're
6 not a small company but the hardship, I don't
7 think, is not just on the small companies, it's
8 on the larger companies as well.
9 We have seven plumbing apprentices, two
10 mechanical apprentices, and the ratios are very
11 difficult. Particularly on the mechanical side,
12 it's hard to uphold the ratios, especially in a
13 service-related company. So for the record, I
14 recommend the 1-to-1 ratio.
15 MR. CONTARINO: Thank you.
16 MR. RUGGIERI: Robert Eva.
17 MR. EVA: Hi, my name is Bob Eva.
18 I'm with Local 17, sheet metal workers. For the
19 record, I'm not for the 1-to-1 ratio.
20 My dealings with apprentices over the years
21 are apprentices really are the most valuable
22 asset to any business, and it's the most crucial
23 asset to any business. It's the part where
24 you're growing and you're learning about your
0025
1 business.
2 If you have a 1-to-1 ratio, then you're
3 going to put an apprentice one way, some day in a
4 situation that's going to be an unsafe situation
5 for them. Whether that journeyman gets pulled
6 away or waiting for him to come on the zone, and
7 if that apprentice should happen to get hurt,
8 whether it would be falling off a ladder or
9 installing something incorrectly where someone
10 else gets hurt, I think that that alone is reason
11 not to have a 1-to-1 ratio.
12 I mean, let's face it, people, we're here --
13 apprentices are there to learn. We, as journey
14 people and as management, are here to instill the
15 education to these people so that they are the
16 smartest people, whether it be for safety or for
17 installing that product that they are licensed or
18 not licensed to do. I feel that it could be an
19 endangerment to do a 1-to-1 ratio.
20 A 5-to-1 ratio or 4-to-1 ratio, these kids
21 are going -- if a journeyman is getting pulled
22 away for a meeting or something, there's somebody
23 else to fall back on and to show this person what
24 to do or work with this person.
0026
1 Leaving an apprentice alone, it's not a good
2 thing. He's not being educated, he's probably
3 not going to install something the correct way
4 that it should be under the code.
5 We have a lot of licensing codes in this
6 state, and I think that at this time, a 1-to-1
7 ratio would not be productive. Thank you.
8 MR. RUGGIERI: Al Durand.
9 MR. DURAND: My name is Al Durand.
10 I'm with the IBEW, Local 99 here in Providence,
11 Rhode Island.
12 When I first started my career, I'll be
13 honest, I didn't know what end of the screwdriver
14 to hold. I got in the apprenticeship program,
15 and at the time, it was a four-year program. I
16 was pretty well-rounded, I thought, but my
17 education went on from there.
18 It was various jobs that I worked on and
19 various systems on these jobs that I've worked on
20 to prove that I was capable of becoming a
21 well-rounded journeyman. It took many years, you
22 don't stop after four.
23 The ratio at the time was more than the
24 1-to-1. I am against -- our organization is
0027
1 against the the 1-to-1 ratio.
2 A study was done in Connecticut back
3 in 1984. For those of you that didn't attend
4 the March 13th meeting, I kind of brushed over
5 this study where they relaxed the ratio for
6 apprentice to journeymen and they went to 1-to-1.
7 They had 4,900 apprentices in the electrical
8 program at the time. And upon that program being
9 instituted, they found out that kids were being
10 left alone or apprentices were being left alone.
11 They found many violations, unsupervised, and the
12 number that graduated in that program or that
13 study went from 4,900 down to 2,300. So more
14 than half of those kids or more than half of
15 those apprentices that were in that program
16 dropped out. They dropped out for a reason.
17 Like what someone said earlier about the
18 school. They don't go to school. They may
19 enroll them and they may go to school for a year
20 or two, but that's it. It's basically a system
21 where they use that kid and the kid doesn't get
22 the proper training and he doesn't have any
23 ambition to go after that because of the fact
24 that it starts to fall off.
0028
1 I understand the situation with the smaller
2 contractors. Mr. Lombardi, I believe that you
3 are entitled to 1-to-1 under the state law for
4 the oil burner, the fire alarm, and the sign
5 contractors, so, you know, I understand your
6 situation. You concentrate on just one system.
7 If you're concentrating on just oil burners,
8 I don't have a problem with that. But what
9 happens is there's a lot of abuse in the
10 industry.
11 We have an apprenticeship program with 170
12 apprentices in the program, 10,000 hours. We
13 interview 500 kids a year. We can only take 40
14 because of the kids that come in, and you hear
15 the horror stories. They go to these schools,
16 they go for a year or two and they drop out. We
17 hear it every month.
18 So I am against the 1-to-1 ratio in this
19 program. Thank you.
20 MS. OREFICE: Can I ask you a
21 question? One of the -- you had suggested that
22 for a particular company, 1-to-1 would be
23 appropriate. Are you saying that we should think
24 about a different ratio for different trades or
0029
1 just across the board?
2 MR. DURAND: No. I just mentioned
3 that the state law gives them a right to have a
4 1-to-1 ratio for oil burners and fire alarm.
5 If you have an AF license, you can have a
6 1-to-1. If you have a sign contractor's license,
7 you can have 1-to-1. If you have a boiler
8 license, you can have 1-to-1. That's the state
9 law.
10 MS. OREFICE: Yes. You're not
11 advocating for us to then go and do that by
12 different trades, are you?
13 MR. DURAND: That depends. That
14 depends on the different legislation that we put
15 before the Senate and the House.
16 MS. OREFICE: But the House --
17 MR. DURAND: I am opposed to 1-to-1.
18 MR. CONTARINO: Thank you.
19 MR. RUGGIERI: Tim Byrne.
20 MR. BYRNE: My name is Tim Byrne.
21 I represent the Rhode Island Association of
22 Plumbers, Pipefitters, and Refrigeration
23 technicians. We're in favor of the 1-to-5
24 ratios.
0030
1 I mean, we've got 1,300 licensed journeymen.
2 We carry about 150 apprentices. Like Al was
3 saying, we interview over 300 candidates for 30,
4 35 spots. The reason we do that is to maintain
5 the ratios.
6 We feel strongly that it takes five sets of
7 eyes watching that journeyman to become a
8 well-rounded apprentice. If someone has to get
9 pulled off to a job meeting, we've got four more
10 sets of eyes watching to keep the unsafe
11 situations at bay and also to teach the many
12 aspects of our business. Anyone who has been
13 involved in plumbing or piepfitting understands
14 that there are many aspects of our business.
15 But I wanted to go on a different track than
16 what everybody else has been talking about. As
17 an organizer, we visit a lot of the jobs, and we
18 see the abuse that happens now in our business
19 with the apprenticeships, seven year apprentices,
20 eight year apprentices.
21 We have a 98 percent graduation rate in our
22 school for apprenticeships. When we take a
23 candidate in, we know he's going to graduate. To
24 go out there on these jobs and find apprentices
0031
1 and say, "What year are you in?" "Well, I think
2 I'm in the third year."
3 If you ask my apprentices what year they're
4 in, they're going to tell you what year they're
5 in, how many hours they have, and how many hours
6 until their next raise. They know exactly where
7 they are. But a lot of these apprentices on the
8 jobs now, they don't know where they are because
9 some of them are not even getting schooling.
10 We get complaints from people that call us
11 because they have no place else to call. They'll
12 call us up because we're in the phone book. They
13 say, "Listen, I just had a guy come to my house,
14 there were three of them here, I don't think any
15 of them of knew what they were doing." We see it
16 all the time.
17 One journeyman shows up with two
18 apprentices, tells them what to do, and he
19 leaves. That woman or that homeowner ends up
20 paying for three journeymen at a journeyman rate.
21 That's not right, and that's not fair. If you
22 pay for journeymen, you need to get journeymen.
23 We feel that the 1-to-1 ratio is going to
24 compound that issue, and it's not going to be
0032
1 fair to the homeowner who expects to be paying a
2 price for a journeyman plumber when they're
3 getting an apprentice plumber. That isn't fair,
4 and the work isn't fair.
5 We are not in favor of 1-to-1. We are in
6 favor of the 1-to-5.
7 MR. CONTARINO: Thank you.
8 MR. RUGGIERI: Richard Keogh.
9 MR. KEOGH: I'm Richard Keogh,
10 Local 17, sheet metal workers.
11 I'm against the 1-to-1 ratio, and it's
12 mostly for education. I mean, it takes a long
13 time -- we're into air quality. If you don't
14 have the right air quality and you have kids that
15 are just out there that don't know what they're
16 doing, you have all the sick buildings out there.
17 It takes a long time to make it right, and you
18 have a lot of changes.
19 In our business, we train the mechanics as
20 times change. So with that, that's pretty much
21 it. I go on air quality for my trade, but all
22 trades should be. It's strictly a safety issue.
23 MR. CONTARINO: Thank you.
24 MR. RUGGIERI: Jon Jarvis.
0033
1 MR. JARVIS: I own High Tech
2 Engineering. And I'm in favor of the 1-to-1
3 ratio. I'm a small company like a lot of these
4 other guys are, and I think we need that 1-to-1
5 ratio. Thank you.
6 MR. RUGGIERI: Adam Hitchen.
7 MR. HITCHEN: My name is
8 Adam Hitchen. I'm the President of Lincoln Sheet
9 Metal. I would like to say that I'm in favor of
10 the 1-to-1. I think the assumption that just
11 because a journeyman leaves the jobsite that
12 they're automatically going to leave an
13 apprentice in place to do things illegally. It
14 is a jump and assumption that I don't think is
15 particularly fair to the honest businessmen who
16 are out there trying to make things right. So I
17 would just like to go on record for 1-to-1,
18 please.
19 MR. RUGGIERI: Steven Lussier.
20 MR. LUSSIER: Steve Lussier. I'm
21 Vice President of the Automatic Temperature
22 Controls, and I'm in favor of the 1-to-1
23 apprentice to journeyman ratio for the simple
24 fact that we could put apprentices to work
0034
1 tomorrow in electrical, sheet metal, pipefitting,
2 or refrigeration.
3 The simple fact is is that people are
4 investing their money in going to trade schools
5 like New England Tech, and they're getting out
6 and they can't get jobs as apprentices because
7 companies like ours can't hire them.
8 We've already got -- we're already maxed out
9 on our apprentices. As far as eight-year
10 apprenticeship goes, we -- when our guys get to
11 five years, I'm watching the clock to get them
12 off and to get somebody else on. We'll keep
13 these people, you know, we train them, we keep
14 them, and we keep advancing them.
15 It's a great career to get into, but a lot
16 of the kids can't get into it, that's why I'm in
17 favor.
18 MR. CONTARINO: Thank you.
19 MR. RUGGIERI: I'm coming back to
20 Dick Daley again. Do you still pass?
21 MR. DALEY: Pass. Thank you.
22 MR. RUGGIERI: Mr. Treml.
23 MR. TREML: My name is
24 Chris Treml. I'm the apprentice coordinator for
0035
1 the Operating Engineers, Local 57. We are in
2 favor of the 1-to-5 ratio. We are against the
3 1-to-1, just for the safety factor involved.
4 I, myself, being a former apprentice always
5 like the fact of having journeymen on the job,
6 numerous journeymen on the job to refer to,
7 especially in operating heavy equipment. From --
8 you know, to send apprentices to contractors, you
9 know, you got contractors spending hundreds of
10 thousands of dollars on, you know, heavy
11 equipment. You know, the production factor is
12 not there when you have apprentices -- you know,
13 a 1-to-1 ratio with apprentice to journeyman.
14 So for the record, we want to stick with the
15 1-to-5.
16 MR. RUGGIERI: I can't quite see.
17 Martin from Coldwater (sic).
18 MR. ISRAELIT: I'd like to submit
19 this for the record, and I'd like to read a short
20 statement.
21 Members of the Professional Regulation
22 Committee: I have to agree that the 1-to-1 ratio
23 is a platform for serious abuse. It's a
24 possibile safety factor, and I think that the
0036
1 1-to-1 is a throwback to the old days where you
2 have a mechanic and one guy that carries tools.
3 With that being said, I'm in favor with
4 something other than 5-to-1, probably 2 or 3-to-1
5 would be a better balance, in my opinion.
6 I contend there has been a shortage. I can
7 only speak from my own experience. I'm not an
8 expert in the field, and I don't have a lot of
9 contact with other companies.
10 I contend that there is a shortage of
11 properly skilled licensed Rhode Island
12 refrigeration technicians. This has caused
13 business owners, such as myself, to overpay for
14 an underskilled labor force and artificially
15 inflating prices charged to the customer.
16 The young, the eager to learn, the
17 self-starter possessing a strong desire to
18 perform in the trade is turning elsewhere for
19 their livelihood because they're discouraged by
20 the long wait into apprentice agreement coupled
21 with the years of training. This seems to slow
22 things down and discourages young and bright
23 people, whom I interview almost daily.
24 This, in turn, places an intense burden on
0037
1 the business owner to find qualified help. Due
2 to the short supply of these skills, the license
3 holder has a potential to hold the business owner
4 and the community served hostage for an hourly
5 rate that is increasingly disproportionate to the
6 skill level.
7 A 2 or 3 to 1 journeyman or apprentice ratio
8 will help remedy this "tail wagging the dog"
9 syndrome by providing the owner a level of
10 competition for labor choices based on skills and
11 productivity. Thank you. Any questions?
12 MR. CONTARINO: I don't have any.
13 Thank you.
14 MR. RUGGIERI: Catherine Lambert.
15 MS. LAMBERT: Good morning. My
16 name is Catherine Lambert. I'm from Multi-State
17 Electric, and I have a letter to read, but I
18 wanted to make a few pointers.
19 Due to reciprocity that's not available
20 right now for licensed journeymen electricians,
21 we have a hard time finding qualified
22 electricians. Because of that, we have a
23 shortage of manpower. We can't get out there and
24 do the work that we want to.
0038
1 I feel that if we have a 1-to-1 ratio, it's
2 a lot safer with a 1-to-1 ratio because the
3 journeyman is working alongside of the
4 apprentice. We move our apprentices in one form
5 to another, and they're there to watch.
6 Earlier, there was a question asked of what
7 would you do if the journeyman called out sick,
8 what would you do with that apprentice?
9 I feel that apprenticeship is all about
10 learning, that means all facets of the trade.
11 The apprentice could go work on the side of the
12 estimator. He could also travel around with a
13 master, or he could work in the stockroom,
14 getting more familiar, especially with different
15 items and tools that they're going to be using.
16 Which, if they're out on a jobsite, they may be
17 limited to what may be on that job. The
18 stockroom is also a viable solution.
19 I have a letter here from the President of
20 our company, Andre Langlais. "Gentlemen and
21 Ladies: Multi-State Electric Company is a small
22 business specializing in servicing the electrical
23 needs of the industrial community. As you are
24 aware, the industrial manufacturing community in
0039
1 Rhode Island has greatly diminished over the last
2 10 to 15 years and is certainly a major
3 contributing factor of the budget problems facing
4 our state. We, at Multi-State, are very proud
5 that our services are helping to keep the
6 remaining industrial facilities in Rhode Island.
7 Contributing to our success is that we are
8 able to provide specialized services at an
9 acceptable cost to our clients. The present
10 apprenticeship programs and 1-to-1 ratio of
11 journeyman to apprentice is a major factor in
12 accomplishing this task. The proposed 5-to-1
13 ratio would have a devastating affect to both
14 Multi-State Electric and to the industrial
15 clients we serve.
16 In the short-term, the proposed 5-to-1 ratio
17 would substantially increase the cost for our
18 services, ultimately affecting the industrial
19 community, the state's income from a reduction in
20 manufacturing, and finally contributing to the
21 state's budget crisis.
22 In the long-term, the proposed 5-to-1 ratio
23 would create a shortage of journeyman
24 electricians. All the electricians begin as
0040
1 apprentices and with proper training, schooling,
2 and supervision, work their way up to
3 qualification and licensing. At the same time,
4 electricians retire, they change careers or pass
5 away. The net result of reducing apprentices is
6 a reduction in electricians.
7 We are all very interested in qualified
8 apprenticeship programs that offer training and
9 supervision. However, the proposed 5-to-1 ratio
10 would have a negative effect for the electrical
11 industry and the State of Rhode Island.
12 Multi-State Electric Company urges this committee
13 to support the 1-to-1 ratio."
14 MR. CONTARINO: Thank you.
15 MR. RUGGIERI: Laura Ley.
16 MS. LEY: I'm from Robert F.
17 Audet, Inc. For the record, we also approve
18 the 1-to-1 ratio. We would like that to be the
19 ratio for electrical workers.
20 And to answer the question that if one of
21 our apprentices is left without a foreman or a
22 journeyman, for that ratio, he's moved. He comes
23 back to the shop and works there or he goes on
24 another site, that's automatic. They're never
0041
1 left on their own.
2 MR. RUGGIERI: Josh Tofani. Do
3 you want to wait? Anthony.
4 MR. D'ANTONIO: Anthony D'Antonio,
5 Plasters and Masons of Rhode Island. We would
6 like to keep it 5-to-1. We're against the 1-and-1
7 apprenticeship.
8 MR. RUGGIERI: Jeffrey Janton.
9 MR. JANTON: My name is
10 Jeffrey Janton, most of you guys know me.
11 I've been in this industry for my whole life, 46
12 years. I'll give you a little background on
13 myself.
14 I started off, I went through the training
15 through the union. I went to the IBEW school
16 back in probably the early '80s. Since then,
17 I've been the head of the education of the
18 Associated Builders and Contractors. I was for
19 two-terms elected as president. I was a national
20 delegate. Let's start where we started with
21 this.
22 Let's go back to 1992 when we implemented
23 144 hours of training per year. There was no
24 schooling necessary at the time. Massachusetts
0042
1 had it, we did not have it. ABC and myself
2 pushed along to get 144 hours of apprenticeship.
3 Before that, there was no law. All we needed
4 was 2,000 hours a year at that point in time.
5 So the electrical board comes to me, staff
6 comes to me, and the state comes to me and says,
7 "Jeffrey, we need to get an apprenticeship
8 program started here."
9 So I get the wheels running through ABC.
10 The electrical board looks through it, everybody
11 approves it. Great, we instate it. That's how
12 we start our training.
13 We started off with -- I know in my training
14 we started off with 100 students. I have over
15 700 students right now in this training program.
16 We have a terrible shortage right now of
17 manpower. I mean, it's unbelievable. The
18 average age of a worker today is 48 years old,
19 and it's getting worse. I run probably the
20 largest shows out here.
21 I'm doing a big job over here right near
22 Garden City, Chapel View. I run about 35
23 electricians, I have nine apprentices. Okay. So
24 we'll get into that. All right.
0043
1 We're talking about safety. We've
2 concentrated on safety. That was a big part of
3 the curriculum when we put that together. That's
4 a big part of the training with the ABC.
5 Let's see here. As far as I know, there's
6 been no deaths or injuries with apprentices here
7 in Rhode Island. The electricians we have -- my
8 own brother passed away. Accidents happen in
9 this job. It's a terrible trade. Believe me, my
10 heart aches every God damn day. It just goes to
11 show you that accidents happen. My brother was
12 in this trade for 25 years. It's a dangerous
13 trade, and it needs to be looked after. We all
14 agree upon that.
15 Right now, I'd say we're training, you know,
16 multiple apprentices. I have nine of them. What
17 would I do if one of my journeymen couldn't come
18 in? We call the apprentice on the job, we tell
19 them to relocate where there is a job. You can't
20 let him not work. That, you're not going to do.
21 Glenn Dusablon would catch this guy on the job
22 and bring me up on the charges. If you take a
23 look at our record, we have no record.
24 I employ most of the apprentice electricians
0044
1 in the state. We do the best training that we
2 know. I believe, yes, it is our apprentice, and
3 it is crucial that we keep him along. We want
4 them safe, we watch out for apprentices. If you
5 have an electrician there, he's looking out for
6 him.
7 Most of my jobs -- I'll tell you what. A
8 lot of the jobs, I usually -- I would say, in
9 Rhode Island, most of the jobs are four men, five
10 men jobs tops, I mean, very seldom do we get a
11 big job, Kmart, Home Depot, Wal-Mart, where
12 they're fast-moving projects. I would say 80
13 percent of our projects require three to four
14 men. So now you've got one guy, two guys, three
15 guys, four guys, no apprentices, no training,
16 nobody out there.
17 There's -- you know, I'm working with the
18 school on a school-to-work program. Why did we
19 set this all up with the state and everybody
20 else? We set this whole program up to further
21 our apprentices.
22 MR. CONTARINO: Jeffrey, please
23 try to summarize. I'll give you another minute
24 and we'll be done.
0045
1 MR. RUGGIERI: I've got a
2 question. If you had 25 guys on the job, how
3 many apprentices would you suggest having on that
4 job?
5 MR. JANTON: I would probably have
6 seven, eight, maybe nine. I could go up to 20,
7 if I wanted to. I would have nine.
8 MR. RUGGIERI: And that would make
9 sense for your company to have 50/50 on that job?
10 MR. JANTON: Definitely. If you
11 got one guy on the staging and one guy next to
12 him, then you have the apprentice.
13 MR. RUGGIERI: Just checking.
14 MR. JANTON: I can't get that many
15 apprentices. You know, IBEW, let's ask them.
16 MR. RUGGIERI: We're not asking
17 Al.
18 MR. JANTON: We have 170 --
19 MR. CONTARINO: Get to the point,
20 please.
21 MR. JANTON: Right now, they're
22 training 170 apprentices. They have 900 men in
23 the Local. Let's say the training right now is
24 170, so how many other apprentices do they have?
0046
1 They must have 500 apprentices. How are they
2 going to stay within the ratio? They can't, not
3 if they want to keep the apprentices working --
4 MR. CONTARINO: Excuse me. We're
5 not here to bash anybody. You're here to give
6 testimony only, please, on the ratios. Don't
7 talk about somebody else that gave testimony.
8 We're not here to bash anybody, please. I would
9 like you to finish in less than a minute. Thank
10 you.
11 MR. JANTON: Okay. You know, we
12 have a great graduation rate. The main thing I
13 want to say is we worked with the state to
14 implement this whole program. Now we're turning
15 it all back. Why are we going backwards? I
16 thought we were going forward here. I mean,
17 where is this going?
18 MR. CONTARINO: Thank you very
19 much.
20 MR. RUGGIERI: Is there anybody
21 else that would like to give some testimony on
22 this out there?
23 MR. DIGGLE: Mark Diggle. My name
24 is Mark Diggle. I'm the Vice President of
0047
1 Climate Control Systems.
2 We are a commercial mechanical contractor.
3 We do very low residential work. We have sheet
4 metal mechanics, pipefitters, and refrigeration
5 servicemen.
6 It is very hard to get with commercial --
7 we're limited 4-to-1 apprenticeship in the
8 service trade. There is a shortage of service
9 technicians which is leading to much a higher
10 cost for poorer work.
11 The existing journeymen, the attitudes
12 towards work and correctness is dropping because
13 they're so secure with the journeyman license.
14 There is no one there to replace them and they're
15 getting older. The quality of work, I believe,
16 is dropping, and pride in the work is also
17 dropping.
18 I believe that a lower ratio is good. It
19 seems to be a choice of the existing one or
20 1-to-1. So, therefore, Climate Control Systems
21 would support the 1-to-1 ratio. I would,
22 however, prefer to have something in between.
23 But if given a choice, Climate Control Systems
24 would support the 1-to-1 ratio. Thank you.
0048
1 MR. RUGGIERI: Anybody else that I
2 missed out there on this list? Any new ones that
3 want to testify? Come on up.
4 MR. CONTARINO: If anybody else
5 wishes to give testimony, please come up and sign
6 in.
7 MR. RUGGIERI: Okay. George Nate.
8 MR. NATE: Thank you. On behalf
9 of the Rhode Island AFLCIO, we're here to support
10 the present ratio.
11 We look around the state and we think that
12 the apprenticeship program is a model of business
13 and labor cooperation in the state of Rhode
14 Island.
15 We have, I believe, based on this system
16 that has worked very, very well, the best
17 educated, skilled, and trained craftsmen in the
18 country. Look around the state and see what has
19 been done in terms of building projects. They're
20 a model for the country.
21 I think it has worked very, very well. The
22 basis is on education, training, and safety, and
23 the record speaks for itself.
24 I think the cooperation that has existed and
0049
1 the resources and the money put that has been put
2 into this system should not be tampered with.
3 Normally, in this situation, we look at the
4 status quo. In this situation, we would like the
5 status quo. Thank you.
6 MS. OREFICE: George, just so it's
7 clear, the reason why we're here is because the
8 amendment to the apprenticeship rules were not
9 promulgated appropriately. So we're having to --
10 the status quo wasn't -- you're saying you
11 support the amendments that we thought were in
12 effect but are not in effect?
13 MR. NATE: That's correct. Not to
14 go to 1-to-1.
15 MS. OREFICE: Right. You're
16 supporting what we thought was the case, what
17 we're trying to fix?
18 MR. NATE: Right. What we thought
19 was the present equation.
20 MR. RUGGIERI: Richard.
21 MR. QUEECN: I'm a small heating
22 contractor on Aquidneck Island, and I'm in favor
23 of the 1-to-1 ratio.
24 MR. RUGGIERI: Thank you.
0050
1 Mr. Jackson.
2 MR. JACKSON: My name is
3 Jim Jackson. I'm the training director for
4 IBEW, Local 99.
5 I've been in the job for four years, and
6 I've concentrated basically on the education of
7 approximately 270 electricians in that period of
8 time. Of that time, we've concentrated heavily
9 on safety, being issue number one, which is one
10 of the things that the Department of Labor with
11 the Fitzgerald Act and other acts have said
12 safety, education, and continuity of employment.
13 Nobody has addressed that today or hasn't seemed
14 to address that.
15 One of the big safety issues was that there
16 are electricians dying. Mr. Janton alluded to
17 his brother who is a journeyman -- I'm sorry.
18 I just wanted to say that I believe that the
19 present system of 5-to-1 is fully sufficient to
20 train and to provide journeyman -- licensed
21 people for the industry.
22 MR. CONTARINO: Thank you.
23 MR. RUGGIERI: Would anybody else
24 like to speak on this?
0051
1 MR. CONTARINO: If there's no
2 further testimony, I'll call the hearing
3 adjourned. Thank you very much for your
4 attendance.
5 (HEARING ADJOURNED AT 10:45 A.M.)
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0052
1 C E R T I F I C A T E
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5 I, Alesha M. Cerrito, Notary Public, do
6 hereby certify that I reported in shorthand the
7 foregoing proceedings, and that the foregoing
8 transcript contains a true, accurate, and
9 complete record of the proceedings at the
10 above-entitled hearing.
11
12 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my
13 hand this 11th day of April, 2007.
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18 ALESHA M. CERRITO, NOTARY PUBLIC/CSR
19 MY COMMISSION EXPIRES SEPTEMBER 27, 2008.
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